xsharp.eu

Dick

> Unfortunately I don't have time to watch hours of Build conference material but
> what I understand is that you draw a conclusion from something someone
> from Microsoft said about the future of Winforms.

Well, some people travel a lot and have the time to write books. "I don't have time" is a weak excuse I think. "I don't like" is probably closer to the truth.

Anyway, I find your reply to Rene very cynical.

I personally think that this message about support for Windows Forms and WPF in .Net Core 3 shows the opposite of what you are saying: Microsoft pronounced Windows Forms dead a couple of years ago. Their customers did not like/believe that and kept on developing apps based on Windows Forms. This announcement shows that they got the message and will keep Windows Forms alive for at least a couple of more years.
That is good news I think.

Robert

Dick wrote:Unfortunately I don't have time to watch hours of Build conference material but what I understand is that you draw a conclusion from something someone from Microsoft said about the future of Winforms.

I would like to warn you is that once Microsoft declares it is committed to something the end is nearby. Did they tell this about Winforms? Then it will disappear. Or did they tell it about WPF? Same.

Examples: "Microsoft is very much committed to WinPhone"
End last year: "Microsoft is very much committed to Cortana and a lot happened last year". In reality Cortana can't do less than last year (music recognition stopped working when they retired Groove music, to which BTW they were very much committed as they were to its predecessor Zune). If you like to read more about it see:
http://webwereld.nl/software/104562-hoe ... e-toekomst (Dutch only).

Just be careful with anything Microsoft promises to support.

Dick

Hi Dick,

When it comes to Win32, .NET (all flavors), ASP.NET, I always give time to the company who actually "invented" this stuff because I cannot guide my team if I lack the (right) information and stop or prevent me from spreading "fake news".

in Windows 10 > Settings > Privacy > Diag & Feedback > Diagnostic Data Viewer, here we can see what data it is sending to MS.


Telemetry and other stuff, making MS aware what we are doing. But we can turn it off.

Why I did write this things?


As a company, MS need to know where the industry and us developers got attracted to.

We see an MS who preach more about Python, JavaScript, Angular and more stuff than talking about C# and other MS-only stuff (open sourcing of WinForms/WPF and UWP been open source for awhile). As long as the end of the spectrum is Azure, there you got this the reason of all. Mr Cloudy stuff: Azure. MS want us to go Azure. It won't matter what platform we are in.

Phone was ax due to lack of users and misaligned to user's direction: Left (iOS) or Right (Android).


So, when they talk about WinForms (supposed to have died years ago) and WPF to get Core 3.0 treatment, I am all ears on that. Why?

Core is faster then Framework, nothing else. Will I deploy our apps on iOS or Linux? no, Xamarin covered that already. We already have that.


My focus is my commitment to Windows 10. My company just graduated from BizSparks and we now huge users of Azure and this is what MS want to happen and I love it. Azure make our apps great. But I am also a huge in-prem developer. Hence Windows 10 and UWP and .NET Core.

How this will play out? I observed. I read. I listen. Prevent mistake.

Let us wait where the world is going, for now, I understand MS is listening and keep on adjusting. So we are also.


MS Build 2018 is great eye opener for me. Win32 still live (some Islands gone, new one appears). WinForms alive. PostgreSQL at Azure. Telerik is demoed at Build. and so on. Most of all, I now know what is Blockchain. and Understand a bit how Azure works. Working now on Telerik Reporting for our Telerik Report Server. X# is important on this for the Sync process (ADS to PostgreSQL and back)


Now, I am waiting for X# Runtime. I want our apps AnyCPU before the year ends or early next year.


Regards,

Rene

One more thing, people at MS always reminding us: if our app is already working: DO NOT PORT IT. KEEP IT WHERE IT IS NOW.

It means: I can keep my Win32 apps where it is and keep it there.

However, I am keen on porting it to X# on Framework and keep it there until Windows 10 dead.

Hello Robert,

I don't have time" is a weak excuse I think. "I don't like" is probably closer to the truth.
Anyway, I find your reply to Rene very cynical.

First of all, you are way out of line with your first remark. I spend a lot of time gaining knowledge - I have to, because I write for IDG and when I write an article it's read by many and they can comment on it too. If my research would be incomplete when I write an article comments will follow. I have never had comments like that or if I did I could easily explain why I wrote it.

What I do not like is video conferences. Every BUILD subject is between 30 and 120 minutes and there are 465 video's this year. In the time I only watch 2 or 3 of them I can digest 20 x more info by reading something.

Second I have good reasons to be cynical about Microsoft promises. The 3 subjects are only a few. Wolfgang is right that the Windows Phone wasn't widely used but in some countries market share was above 10% in 2013 and that was the time Microsoft started to say how committed they were while doing less and less for the phone. With a bit more of effort Windows Phone could still have been the 3rd mobile OS with probably not more than 10% market share but supporting the UWP philosophy much better. That's why I won't get excited anymore when Microsoft promises something.

Unfortunately.

Dick

Helle Rene,

Maybe it's a bit of topic but I noticed your enthusiasm for Azure. I have let our trainee work on Azure the last 3/4 year, this was from the Azure credits included in Action Pack. After Microsoft support migrated my account to a new Partner Account, necessary they said to renew my Action Pack, buying an Action Pack stopped working. No doubt because of one of Microsoft's many half baked solutions, in this case the "new" partner account. I decided not to start the time consuming fight with support (can't post support issues for the same reason anyway) but just to drop Action Pack.

One of these days the Azure server will stop working but in that 3/4 year I was surprised to see how dreadfully slow everything works on that Azure server. It's a bit like working on a Celeron Pc. So I wondered if you experience Azure speed differently?

Dick

There seems to be a latent assumption here that Microsoft is in the driving seat.

I do not believe this to be the case.

Microsoft is, IMO, cleverly positioning itself to make things as straightforward (for itself) to follow future demands of the marketplace, with all its likely twists and turns at the same time as being able to capitalise on underlying technological advances in processor design/capabilities. The latter will be largely hidden at higher levels, but is likely to be very significant in respect of security (and maybe performance).

Since, as Dick implies, few of us have time to follow all trends in all areas, so latching on to MS's coat-tails is probably a wise option - with caution.

Terry

Hi Terry,

I agree that MS is not in the driving seat, as you call it. They had a lot of influence power in the past, but not anymore.
But not even Google or Amazon or Facebook are able to drive or lead tecnology where they like. They for sure have some large influence, but really they work to earn money.
And if persons and companies don't like to spend money for a tecnology, every one from the big suppliers will finish supporting it.
Look how many products Google was committed to, and how fast they went away when they had not the desired success.

Returning to us: both WinForms and WPF are affirmed and widely used tecnologies, and if Microsoft would terminate to support them in newer Windows versions, they would loose the money of many, many customers.... And since money for them is the most important issue, they will not do it until enough customers use it.

If you look at Microsofts earnings, Azure is an important part, but only a fraction. Applications and operating systems are a larger part:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/26/microsoft-earnings-q3-2018.html

So you can sure Microsoft will not kill its cash cows <g>.

Wolfgang

Dick wrote:Helle Rene,

Maybe it's a bit of topic but I noticed your enthusiasm for Azure. I have let our trainee work on Azure the last 3/4 year, this was from the Azure credits included in Action Pack. After Microsoft support migrated my account to a new Partner Account, necessary they said to renew my Action Pack, buying an Action Pack stopped working. No doubt because of one of Microsoft's many half baked solutions, in this case the "new" partner account. I decided not to start the time consuming fight with support (can't post support issues for the same reason anyway) but just to drop Action Pack.

One of these days the Azure server will stop working but in that 3/4 year I was surprised to see how dreadfully slow everything works on that Azure server. It's a bit like working on a Celeron Pc. So I wondered if you experience Azure speed differently?

Dick

Hi Dick,

I have to be clear: It is normal to be cynic. That make us human.

Anyway, we have 3 VMs (apps, database, content servers) at Azure and 5+ app services. One of that VMs that hosted our PostgreSQL is Standard DS3 (4 vcpus, 14 GB memory and around 500 GB SSD); the other two is similar but with more or less bigger ram or SSD storage). Just upgraded all 3 VMs to higher CPU and memory/storage two months ago. We will increase our VM when clients demand a dedicated host. But, we might explore serverless as well. I am now researching on Azure Functions, Bot and Graph API for our curiosity. But I am more interested on Azure Functions as well as implementation on Azure AD B2C for our next gen apps. Totally embracing Azure for our online banking for cooperatives.

I will let you know if the performance still at its best now that we are about to production mode.

Am I satisfied? Yes, today I am enthusiastic about it. Tomorrow? or Next month? I do not know. I have to listen to my customers and my network admin. Amazon and Google with Azure at the middle. MS cannot messed up this one.

Regards,

Rene

ps: sorry for OT. Anyway, X# is important of all this devt. I am just wondering of the last XBase Future have some proceedings available. I really wanted to get some materials on Azure with X#.

Hi all,

I tend to agree (a lot) with Terry and Wolfgang (and no doubt a few other too) on the position and approach of Microsoft - and indeed it is good that no one 'body' (or company) has too much power or say about the future of IT stuff.

However, as a teacher and educationalist, I would NOT like to think that this news regarding WinForms is used by any/many as an excuse to further ignore WPF technologies for the next eleven years

Please remember that we can mix WPF and WinForms in the same project and app. I suggest that ALL start to add new 'stuff' in WPF format while enjoying the fact that older WinForms is still supported. You will need to use WPF sometime in the future, so don't keep putting it off.

I recommend spending 'new time' on new technologies. Support and maintain your existing WinForms as they are, but create new GUI screens with WPF technologies. As developers we all need to learn and develop new skills in the WPF arena (knowledge area). WPF has many advantages to offer us.

Hope these comments encourage 'movement' in the right direction!

Best regards,
Phil - Wales, UK.

Hi Phil,

of course my new development will be all WPF, but I have a lot of legacy VO code, that hopefully will be moved over to X# and WinForms.

IMHO on the desktop only with WPF you are able to build modern applications than can run on any device, because WPF was build from ground up using vector graphics instead of the ancient pixel based Windows GDI.

I had never expected that Microsoft would make available WinForms in .NET Core, but of course this announcement makes it easier to maintain old legacy applications.

Wolfgang